A pangolin and a desert druid with Joedan Worley

Welcome everyone to In Other Worlds, a lit RPG Gamelit and Fantasy Podcast. I am your host Jess, and today we are sitting down with brand new lit RPG author, Jodian Worley. Jodian, how are you?

I am suspiciously good. Something's up.

I mean, you can just be good. Yeah.

I could I could just be good. Yeah. I did warn you that I was gonna be randomly looking around like a crazy person because my lights are subtly shifting colors. Probably. You let me know if they really are. Okay, okay, good.

Then it's not just it. It went from like a pinkish to a purple.

I'm okay with both of those colors. If we go into yellow, I'm out. I'm done. Done.

Okay. I won't let you know then.

Yeah, I just absolutely yeah, you know, lie to me, please.

I will.

No, you've got a nice solid rose glow to you right now.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like a halo effect. You just look, you look very pleasant.

This is the opposite of an interview. I've already derailed it, and we haven't even got started yet.

All right.

That's Jodan.

I like to keep it kind of flowy a little bit, so this works. I can get us back on track.

Perfect.

Your first book, Wayspring Wanderer.

Yeah. A Desert Druid Lid RPG.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes. So that is officially out. Uh give us a little snippet rundown. What's it about?

I was born in a small town. No. Um, so the story is about a Marine. Uh, his name is Oscar, and he's he's pretty much lost everything. I know it's Lid RPG, and everyone's like, yeah, you can't be sad. I mean, I wanted my character to feel real, and unfortunately, some of the best people and the and and even average people turn great when they go through hard things. And so we don't sit in that sadness for long. He is he is uh somebody with perseverance who pushes through. With that being said, he's looking for his brother. His brother has disappeared off the coast of Africa doing contract work, you know, the year before. Uh, he's on the back end of a life-altering injury himself, and he lost his foot to a roadside bomb. And so he ends up following his brother. Oscar shows up in a in a desert planet with two sons in his boxers with no leg on, with a hospital with a um hotel bed sitting in the middle of the sand, and he's, you know, sort of the story builds from there of him looking for his brother. Uh, you know, I got big monsters, I got Kabold. Funny story. Mike Kobold, have you ever read Magic Kingdom, uh Magic Kingdom for Sale Sold by Terry Brooks?

No, I actually have that. I I have a large number of Terry Brooks books.

I have all of Terry Pratchett's, and I've read like one. I have all of his books, though.

I'm that way with Terry Brooks.

He has this crazy series where this guy, like, his wife passes away. His name's Ben Ben Holliday, I think. And he sees this crazy article in the newspaper that's like Magic Kingdom for sale. And of course it's nuts, but he just can't let it go. And he's like, I have no reason to be here anymore. I don't care about this money, I don't care about all these things that I have. The kabolds in that story are these like purple long-eared, super dangerous like creatures. And so all these, you know, shiny kabolds and stuff from WoW or whatever that have kind of taken over what people think of of kabolds. I never pictured them that way because the first time I was ever introduced to the concept of a kabold, it was in by Terry Brooks. So that's what my kabolds are based off of, is actually uh Terry Brooks kabolds.

That was actually something that I'd noticed when I was reading it. I'm like, this is not how I normally picture them. This is like the opposite of did a lore drop on you just now, didn't I? Yeah, you did.

There, I just ruined the whole chapter.

No.

I should have spaced it out.

I I finished book one. I'm very excited for book two. Oh, nice. Nice.

Oh, book two is even better.

They were uh not typical for like your typical fantasy style characters.

I you know, I wanted to work hard on my characterization, lean into everybody being individual. You know, weirdly, it's funny because my wife sent me an article that talked about Cormac McCarthy and and how he didn't use dialogue tags. And his whole argument was that if you write characters well enough, you don't need them. And and though I don't lean into that totally, I think he's got a really solid point. If if you can't make a pretty good when you get a text from somebody, sometimes you're scrolling through Facebook and you don't even see the name, but you know exactly who wrote it just off of a glance. Yeah, and that's kind of I was like, that's not a bad way to write a character so that you know you generally know the things they focus on. They're physical or they're ethereal, that they're spiritual, or or whatever it is that makes them different.

I there were a handful of your characters in the book that you just kind of knew, just based on kind of the way that they acted and presented themselves.

My my weird little purple kabold characters.

Yeah, it's I liked them. They were good characters. They were good. I liked them a lot.

Good.

So you picked the desert.

I did.

I I think this is the first lit RPG book that I've read that focuses in uh like just this big never-ending desert.

Yeah.

Why why a desert?

You know, maybe in some ways, because that's where, you know, kind of my life changed. I was a corpsman with two one Marines. I went over to Fallujah, Iraq, in 2004. I got a nice parking spot out of it, and I have a above-knee amputee on the left side, my right ankles fused, my right knee is reconstructed. And my main character also, you know, as I mentioned earlier, is an amputee as well. But I I've I'm very careful to never make him a victim because of that. It is just another hurdle. It's another problem, just like learning the magic, just like surviving in a world that's that's really not made for survival anymore, that's that seems to be dying. And so, uh, you know, on my end of things, I think the desert just represented the kind of struggle that I wanted the character to go through. In a weird sort of way, it was almost like a mean choice to take a druid and put him in a desert.

And it is, yeah.

And and you know, it's one of those things that, you know, as a as a as a kind of a pantser character writer, you know, you build the world through the characters and the interaction. Like I describe my world well enough, but I was blown away when somebody was like, the world building in the story is an easy 10 out of 10. I was like, really? And I didn't think that I had not done it, but then I realized that there are other authors out there that an example would be Eden Hudson. Eden Hudson's worlds are so incredible and they feel so like off balance, like there's something that's always a little like under the surface, and she never explains it. It's like playing Dark Souls or something. Like you never get the lore behind why it is, but you see the effect it has on the people. And and that, you know, it really was uh it was very encouraging to read that comment because I'm like, okay, because I was I was afraid as a as a new author that there was a gap, that there was a weakness that I had somewhere, and apparently that's not it. Whatever it is, that that doesn't seem to be it. To be able to make a vibrant world that feels real and has history out of a desert is is absolutely a challenge. And uh I'm happy to know that at least for some people that it it paid off.

Yeah, I mean, going through the book and reading just the character building and the world building and the way that you make some of these characters so relatable, yeah. Uh it doesn't feel like this is the first book that you've put out.

That is a very sincere and appreciated um Why am I gonna cry?

It was really good. It was really good.

That is a I really do appreciate that. Um that's a very kind thing for you to say. I think if there's one thing in my life that I knew I was gonna be good at my whole life, it was just reading. And I'm not one of those people that that knows the story beats. You know, there sometimes you'll talk to people and I you just feel like I have no idea what I'm doing with this whole writing thing. Because they're just they're speaking, but for me, I'm I just know when it's right. Does that make sense? Yeah, I mean I understand, I know the comments, I know the the concept of a first act, second act, third act, I know a rise and fall, conflict, saving the cat. I know all these things on paper, but it's like time dilation. You know, I don't I can I can describe it to you, but it doesn't mean I know what I'm talking about. I just I just know I just know when it's right. And so I just kept writing and kept editing. And uh I have some incredible people in my, you know, in my corner with Shadow Alley Press that have made sure that some of these tough things that I, you know, I decided to write a book that does talk about mental health in Lin RPG, but not in a way that makes anybody a victim. It's really the whole story is about finding purpose again when you when you've lost it.

Yeah.

And so I really do appreciate that was a very kind compliment. Thank you.

I told myself that I was gonna get through this interview and I wasn't gonna cry. So I'm not gonna let myself cry.

I almost beat you to it. I'll I I'll cry though. Like I don't I will get in front of a thousand people, so so you you wrote this character, right?

And you said you didn't want the the loss of his leg to be a liability, and you wanted him to kind of to show that he, you know, he can work through that and he can still function and and still be relatively normal. But at the same time, even though he was given this druid class that is unique, and so he has to create this class himself, he still isn't this like unbelievably overpowered MC. He still is on a little bit on the frail side, and he's still learning how to use his powers and what his powers even can be. Like I think there was one fight where he got was knocked out right at the beginning.

Yeah.

And he had no part in that fight because he just it just got knocked right out.

There's there's different ways to make characters powerful, and and instead of leaning right into him being gifted something that just automatically made him powerful, I wanted him to work for it. I wanted him to to put the work in. And instead of it being an overpowered class that he just learns how to use, I wanted it to be a custom like it's almost like a you know, your armor or a weapon that's just perfectly weighted for you. And and that's what I wanted it to be for him. And so, you know, as you get further into the story, and especially through book two, which is just insane, you see, you start seeing the little pockets, you know. Sometimes he has dreams where he gets to see these little, you know, concepts of what could be. And I I mean, I I just wrote a scene in Act Three that feels so much a departure from where he started. And I cannot wait to see what people think, for better or for worse, because I know that as a writer, as an author, you're not gonna hit everybody, but I do things that are well thought out for specific people. I will go through great effort to hit the the seven readers that understand biology, or you know what I'm saying? Like I love doing stuff. I I don't mind going in and doing research. I in fact, my editor is a biologist as well. And so when when she saw what I had done with the um with the hyenas and how I had sort of created these out of extinct earth versions of she was and again, that I'll do I'll go out of my way for somebody specific like that. I I'm just blown away at at the feedback and and the encouragement. And you know, in the magic system, you're gonna see more and more about what it can turn into and and who he can become.

I think the magic system in this has been pretty unique. I mean, I've always been a big fan of the elemental style of magic, the earth, the air, the water. Despite him being a druid in the desert, he still has a way to find water, which has been one of the main things that has been able to keep their little conclave going.

You know, uh you're absolutely right. And I I'm not really making a statement in that that that you know, when you have the resources to focus on something that other people can't focus on, that you can grow in power in ways that they can't grow. I you know, I wasn't making a statement. This is literally just the the there are no druids in that world anymore. They're gone, they're dead. Weirdly, his gr the greatest power, and the only reason he's alive is because he can find water. That's his thing, is he can find water. It seems like a silly druid power until you're walking around in a desert with two sons and you're like, you know, it'd be nice if I had the ability to find water. And so because he doesn't have to spend half of his day, like every other creature on this earth, trying to find water, he can focus on that magic. He can train, he can do things, they can pull water up out of the ground without exposing the waste spring, and so they don't have to deal with predators, they don't have to deal with the problems that come with you know, it's like those animals that try to get uh water without getting eaten by a crocodile or something, you know. And in this world, it's kind of the same thing. You try not to get eaten by a crocodile.

Anything that's living in that desert, the first little hint of water, they're everyone. Oh, yeah. Everyone. So that is handy. Yeah. I mean, obviously, having Penny helps with that.

Oh, I love Penny.

She is just the the cutest. So, what made you choose a pangolin?

I love that they don't look real. Listen, the first time I ever saw a penguin, I'm like, why are these not domesticated in people's homes? Forget dogs. I love dogs. I work for a service dog organization that trains dogs for veterans. So I love dogs, but pangolins, bro, come on. That's a that's a clear upgrade, right?

They are super cute. I mean, it was just even the picture of Penny on the cover, it was just too, it's too much. It's too much. I just can't handle it.

Weirdly, when when I think about my book doing like super well, I don't think about like going on writing retreats with with like Chatfield and Norton and the boys. I literally think of I could make plushies a penny for people. No, I swear to you, that my measure for success is when I get to a point to where people want plushie pennies, that'll be as as important as the first time I see somebody doing a cosplay. I'm not joking.

Listen, I would take a little a little plush penny and I would stick her right on my bookshelf.

Okay, I might I might end up on Etsy before before before this this year's over.

You would sell them. They would sell really well. She's just adorable.

She is adorable. And she is probably the most based off of a person out of all my characters. I generally will take an element about someone that I appreciate or admire, and and I'm like, what about that do I like? And I don't build a character off of necessarily that person, but kind of that trait. And Penny is probably is is a lot based off of my my middle daughter. She's just Penny. I don't know how to describe it. She's just Penny.

I think that's adorable. Did you expect people to love Penny as much as they did? Did you like I feel like she is just gonna be the character that everyone loves?

She is. I did a poll on on Royal Road, and she got she had like 65%. I mean, I didn't let it hurt my feelings or anything that that was the most dynamic character I have. But I do understand peer pressure and why plot armor exists. So I do tell people that if anybody in the story has plot armor, it's Penny.

Yeah.

And they're like, it better stay that way. And I'm like, chill, relax.

Listen, if something happens to Penny.

I you were not the first person to bodily threaten me.

Um yes, you can't do anything to Penny, she has to stick around.

Penny, Penny is safe. I just gotta make sure that she stays as awesome because as as Oscar grows in power, you know, she has to serve a purpose. And so it's fun. These are all these aren't things that I'm like, oh no, what am I gonna do? Weirdly, problems give me direction. I know exactly what I need to do usually for that. And so, you know, writing Penny's growth is is fun too.

The animal companion ends up being the favorite. I feel like that's kind of overwhelmingly like the way that it typically ends up. When you have a good animal companion.

Why do you think that is?

Animals are loved.

Yeah.

We feel like we need to protect them. I mean, how can you hate an animal?

You're right. I think that when you write an animal companion, you have a little more leeway to have fun with the character. And you can tell and nobody really wants to read a silly book unless you know you're going into a silly book. But when the musician or the artist or the author is having fun, it's palpable. And those little tiny doses of of that peppered throughout, the little lighthearted fun, the little, you know, penny showing off, preening, you know, trying to get pets. And then you, you know, you slowly realize that she's not doing this absent-mindedly. She's the distraction. She's she's doing her part even when you know when people are stressed. Her her quote unquote neediness is is very much purposeful.

Yeah.

And so, you know, I and I think you get to have fun with characters like that. There's no guile with her. She wants attention, love, and to take care of the people around her. And there is no complexity, there's only growth in the the the strength of that feeling and desire. Not um you never have to worry about betrayal or anything like that. And and I do want to say that's another thing that I I refuse to do. I don't I don't like intertight group politics being a tension point in books.

Yeah.

Because when you fight and bleed with somebody for real, all the dumb stuff goes away. There is no, is are they gonna betray me because of something? And and you will never see I'm not gonna say that all my all my characters are going to agree because they're not going to. They're they're very different people, but at no point is is there gonna be a point where I use the tension of the group as a you know, as a high beat.

Yeah.

Especially Penny.

Yeah, and I mean, I don't I I want to talk about later in the book, but I also don't want to give away spoilers. Um because I think that it would kind of ruin a little bit of the book if I did. But like, there's one time when the group is walking through the desert and they have really You'll know it when you get to it.

Because there'll be sand.

Right. Um, and they're walking through and they have a fourth person with them, and that person has been through just unspeakable, horrible things. And Penny is just you know, jumping through the sand and trying to show off a little bit and just trying to kind of distract them, and it ends up kind of working, and she's just such a lovable character.

She really is. And and you know, I think if there's those two characters that you were just talking about are the two that I think if I could hug if I could hug, what is going on with me today?

I don't think that the non penny character I don't know. I don't I don't feel like they would really want a hug.

Not then.

Because they feel like they if They give a h if they get a hug, it will all just fall apart.

Yeah. Yeah, not yet. Not yet. I think we've all we've all wrote that line before.

Oh yeah. Definitely.

You know, I'll say I'll say this about grief as a whole, and this is, you know, s an aside from the book, but also very, very deeply ingrained, I think. There are times when you don't want someone to relate to you. You don't you don't want someone to say, I know what you're going through, or I too have lost someone. I don't want to know that you've hurt the way that I hurt. I've never done a talk about my experience in Iraq and wish somebody would be like, oh, I I was there. I I too hurt when when you lost these people on Labor Day when you lost most of your second squad. I too, those were all people that were close to me. That's the last thing that I want. But there's a time to let out the long breath. You know, there's a time to to do that, and and it's not when the work needs done. Um you know, and and so yeah, there there comes a time when when I I want someone to simply be present that I know cares, not to put me in a situation where I have to reassure them that I'm okay when I'm not.

Yeah. A few months back, um I lost my father, and I had gone through a point where I was like, don't hug me, don't touch me, I can't handle it right now, I have shit to do. Like I had to take care of everything. I I was the oldest child, and so I was like, okay, I'm I'm the executor. Like I went into work mode. I'm like, I gotta do this and this and this, and I gotta get this done, and I need to call these people, and I was like, that's what I'm gonna focus on right now, and I was like, that's it. That's all I'm focusing on. I decided to get the work done.

I'm proud you're here.

Thank you. It was a lot. I'm glad that you're here as well.

Thank you. It's been a little work. A little work getting here. Little little walk, run, and crawl, minus the the running.

Yeah, no. I mean, at least you're not walking through a desert full of sand.

It could be worse. I would never do that to me.

I've got people for that.

It's so mean. It's mean what I'm saying. Oh, by the way, you you did mention her. Uh let's see if I can get Penny up on the Hey Penny.

So cute.

And and if you'll notice the prosthetic.

Yeah. Yeah. As his man, I really, this is hard trying to not give away. Trying to talk around.

You can just say there is a character and and I'll roll with it.

So uh the healer that they end up finding.

Yeah.

Ends up no, because that's gonna ruin part of it. Never mind. I'm not gonna ask that question because it's gonna ruin it. I'll ask you that after.

All right.

After we're done. I'll go.

I just want to say the the end of the book is not a tie it up in a nice bow, beautiful, but it is very satisfying. It is very affirming. It is very like maybe all this could be worth it someday. But I think also you get a touch of the big picture of what needs that to really happen. And so, you know, I I would encourage anyone who who may be a little thrown by the oddity of the start of the book to continue reading. I feel like it's one of those books that that really does get better and better and better, and that stuff isn't just wasted. It's not, I tried not to have anything wasted, it's it's a foundation that's there for a reason.

Yeah, I picked it up, and when I when I started it, I was just like, okay, well, where is this going? Like he's waking up on this hotel bed in the middle of the desert. Like, what how is he even gonna survive? Like, what, where is this gonna go? And and as I continued reading it and more characters were introduced, and he started to learn more about the world and its powers, I was like, oh, oh.

So there's an odd sort of overarching synergy that I don't feed to the reader, and and so I love those oh moments. I love those moments when a when a reader gets it, you know. Um I mean, I think that there are some really solid books out there that that as a as a writer, you have to balance spoon feeding, but also uh allowing those who who like to read into things and to figure things out themselves some room to play as well. And so that is one thing that I don't really compromise on because at the point, Oscar himself doesn't really know what the purpose of it all is.

He's just I mean, that's how he's able to do a lot of the stuff that he can with magic, is because he has no preconceived notions of what the limits are supposed to be.

Yeah, he's not a savant that shows up like in in every, you know, in a lot of other books, like, oh, I understand the crafting. People have been doing this for a thousand years, but what if I added bacon soda? You know, it's like okay, buddy. Like, you know, there's none of that.

He does, he brute forces some of it.

He does brute force some of it, and he pays the price for that occasionally as well.

Yeah, yeah.

You can't you can't use a hammer to fix a window without getting some getting some cuts.

Yeah.

So in the in the book, I think that you had mentioned it may not have been right at the beginning, but not at the end of the book, that the world is kind of dying. So that implies to me at least that at one point, and you don't have to answer this question if this is too much of a spoiler, um, but that implies to me at least that at one point it wasn't that bad. So it may not have been a desert planet. There may have been like lush cities and oceans. Does it do the later books kind of go into that?

Oh, absolutely, yeah. Book two, especially, who's with you know, book two is with the editors right now, and um oh, the end of that book. So oh man, there's something really cool. I I I I will never ever ever tell anyone because I think it's you know a really cool moment that I wouldn't want to steal from anyone. There was a world, and I don't think it's really I can go into a spoiler because to be honest, or it's not even a spoiler, but a little bit of the world building, there's not history books. There's no way for them to find these things out. And and you know, and so I although I won't go into everything, which I have thought through everything because again, when I make a character, I build that character from childhood. I think, what did this person go through as a kid? And and you you learn that about Oscar, what he went through as a very young kid, and and what it was as his older brother to see him go through that, and to to have to be that older older brother in that moment. And there's some really cool things that happen in book two that dive all the way into that stuff, all the way back to childhood. You know, when it comes to when it comes to his story uh in particular, and and the way that this world sort of like dives in and they sort of like find cohesion, is that he's there to to bring the world back to what it should be, to to balance things out. It's not a he's not a necessarily a beacon of goodness. I mean, the cycle of life includes death.

Yeah.

And so in this world, you know, shaman were not always evil. It's just when you give someone access to a bank vault, they're you know, and they're gonna start pocketing gold coins. Not everybody, but many will. And unfortunately, all it takes is a few before somebody's like, we gotta lock this up. It's why we have to pull our laptops out at the TSA. It is not for the the hundred thousand people you see go through the airport every month. It's for the the one or two that that you know that messes it up for everybody. I would love to do a redemption arc on on shaman, but you know, it's you know, the way the classes work in this world is that most of what's left is tainted. You know, it's it's you know, these classes that get passed down are the ones that people unlock. I mean, what most most of what like the clinkers and and people have are survival classes. They're not combat classes. There's you know, there's not mages running around. Why would you want to be, you know, an elementalist or whatever when is that gonna help you find water? You can't create it out of nothing. Even Oscar can't do that. So you know, it it helps when you get skills that make it where you don't need to drink every day, or you know, you can find food easier, or yeah, you know, your body's just more efficient as a whole.

Yeah, I mean, when you're in nothing but a huge, vast desert, survival abilities become more important than anything else. Because you don't have something to help you survive, you then you won't.

It's a it's a survival loop, and they're stuck in it, you know, in in this part of the world. I do touch upon there might be something closer to approaching civilization far to the east, um, with the Draken people, but for the most part, what you know, they're in the equivalent of the Badlands, which is is which in the original Royal Royal Road opening was where the story started anyway, was in the American uh Badlands up in uh in the Dakotas. So, you know, I I kept the theme a little bit that that you know it's not that there's towns and houses, because there's there's legitimately not, but there are places that that I can't wait to I can't wait to share. It's gonna be so awesome.

Yeah, I mean I mean outside of the collectives that run around, uh one of the characters had talked about the uh like Sand River.

Yeah.

Which I thought was kind of cool. Like that's a really neat like I was picturing that in my head as she was describing it, and I'm like, that is so cool. So I am excited to see what more the world has outside of just the big desert.

That stems from the 80s, you know. We were like growing up and watching cartoons and stuff, like you know, quicksand. We were I was I swore that at some point I was gonna need to know how to handle quicksand. And so I was like, what if there was an entire like what if there was something like the Mississippi River, but it was literally like flowing sand that I mean that's terrifying. It is terrible it is the and see that's it. I one thing that I I love going into is like in his mind right now, just having heard about it, and and Fox herself hasn't been there. She just knows of it, she's heard of it. Yeah, could you imagine what that would sound like? The feel of the earth. Yeah, what you just heard, that sustained thing that's just a bit unsettling, that is what it's gonna sound like when we go there. It's gonna be it's gonna be something else.

So they are, are they gonna go there?

As a pantser, I can tell you I intend on getting them there. Um I'm not a full pantser, uh, but I I I'm trying to think of a nice way to put this. Um I'm I'm not even a boxer briefs guy. That's a that's about you know, it's it's like I'm wearing three-quarter inch capriz. That's how much pants I am. It's there's enough, there's enough there. I do an outline. I do generally what I do is I write a paragraph of what I want to happen in in the order I want it to happen, and then I I strike line the sentences as I go. Um I did a 8,000-word paragraph trying to force being a plotter in for book one. Um and by the time I got by the time we got to the Griffiths vulture, I was so far off track that it was completely useless to me. I spent l I could have written three chapters in the amount of time it took me to to write that. So I I won't be sitting down and and and but the downside being I have to go back and make sure that I get my facts right. I can't I can't pants forever because you know, any deviation, and next thing you know, you're off in Albuquerque.

And then you'll get people reaching out to you being like, um, excuse me.

Uh your math is wrong here, sir.

Earlier, and now it's being this.

So I appreciate people like that though. I I really do. Uh, you know, just please approach me with some respect. You'll absolutely get it back. I might even drop some lore on you, like whatever you want. I'm excited to talk about the story anyway.

So yeah, I mean, it's good. So yeah.

It's unique. And and I think that that, and again, there's a reason why, you know, we have a lot of books that that are very similar in theme, and you know, you got OPMCs, because uh, you know, a lot of times people read and they that's what they want. Um, you know, me personally, uh, there's a a series that I grew up reading called The Dark is Rising, and it's a little bit young adult, and it's kind of a comfort read for me when I want to read something where the stakes are just a little bit different, you know. And and so, you know, uh, but but for people who really want to dive into characters and have that stuff, and I think I strike a balance between people who um want to read Eden Hudson but don't want everybody to die.

So yeah. Yeah, I mean there some people have come close.

And and it is a harsh world. Uh there's a I feel like there's a pretty impactful um situation near the end of the book.

There's a lot of those.

Yeah.

Um there's a lot of those.

Yeah.

Um but you're not going to be able to do it.

Well, thank you. That that feels good too.

You've written it in a way that that it doesn't feel like all of them are a hundred percent safe.

Yeah. Just because they're safe so far. I mean, honestly, I I had intended one character to make it far into book two, at least. And when I wrote it, it just, you know, and it it just didn't feel right. It was wrong. Um it happened the way it needed to happen, and and it you know, that's just how it how it was. I I you know that's kind of the problem with pantsing is that you have to be true to what feels right, and you can't, you know, when you stop doing that, people people will recognize like, okay, we've got some some ducex machina pop it in here now, because that, you know, realistically, why would this person have made it through this without at least losing this?

You know, yeah. Or it just feels forced.

It feels forced.

And that can come through in writing also.

I had written a really I had like planned out a really big scene in book two. And when I and I mean I was excited for it because it was gonna be, it was part of like the it was technically gonna be the end of book two. And when I got there, I realized that I had written my characters too competent to fall for it. And weirdly, as as much as it derailed the entire plan for the end of book two, I was like, I have really created characters that feel real enough that I I can't I can't mess with that. I can't force you know incompetence into to people that that when they make their mistakes, they own up to them and say, this will be better next time. I will not make this mistake again. And and you know, my man, my characters aren't perfect, but they learn their lessons and they're self-aware and and they self-correct. So that's that's my favorite kind of people anyway. I like somebody who can be like, you know what? I did this thing and it was dumb, and everyone told me it was dumb, and I could argue with them further, or I could not argue and learn my lesson and move on and accept it.

Yeah, yeah.

I I swung on a kid when I was like 13 years old, and he was 15, and I had I had whooped a bunch of kids, so I wasn't worried about this guy at all.

Probably not a good idea, though.

It was not a good idea. He picked me up, and I will never forget this. Guy, if you're out there, please reach out to me. I owe you at least a book. You cheat, you might have saved my life. I don't even remember what he said, but I I I lived in um I grew up in Paulding County, Georgia, and uh, you know, I got I got messed with a little bit, you know, red hair, smart mouth. I earned it mostly. Mostly. At least the initial messing with. After that, it's a little, you know, I started popping people in the mouth, and uh that seemed to work better than telling the teachers. And so I got a little a little uppity, um, you know, thinking and uh that I wasn't really worried about people anymore. I the only thing I remember is that they were Latino, not part of the reason we got into an argument at all. I didn't remember what he said, but I just I swung on this kid and he had like wispy beard, and I was still like, what'd you say to me?

You know at 15.

Oh, you know, he'd like the start, a little peach bust.

Right, right.

So he caught I don't remember if it was my hand or my arm, and picked like wrapped his arms around me and picked me up like a baby and laid me down on the pavement. And Jessica, I will never forget what he said to me. He said, There's always somebody meaner than you out there. Now, that sounds contrived. I swear that it was that or something very like it. That was what he said, though. And in that moment, what went through my mind wasn't anger. I was angry before. What went through my mind was he's right.

It's a very good point.

That's a valid point. And it slowed my whole role. It really did. It slowed my whole role, and I needed that. I needed somebody, but that young man, that 15-year-old man, I call him a man because he, I'm sure, learned that lesson hard and he taught it to me soft.

Yeah.

When I'm sure it would have been very satisfying to pop my smart mouth in the face. Some people say I'm punchable. I get it, I get it. I'm not mad at it.

It is what it is.

That guy, that guy might have saved my life. That guy might have saved my life.

I mean, yeah, that takes that takes a lot of uh self-reflection and and just knowledge. Like it, that's that's a very grown way to respond to that as a 15-year-old.

Yeah, he uh he handled that way better than I was handling the situation. And you know, you don't realize you're in a core memory until sometimes years later. So for me, it was just humbling at the time. And then later on, I realized that I wasn't quite as quick to, you know, shove somebody's head into the wall or or whatever. It it was it was good for me. I think I needed that. I think my injury did kind of the same thing, it just put me into a a more positive mindset. Not that getting blown up is a good thing, it kind of sucks if I'm being honest.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, if I had to put a word, it would be like sucks. I don't know, you know. Maybe blows, I don't know, whatever. Not cool, bro. You know, I don't know.

Yeah, I mean, obviously, uh, it sucks, but one of the most important things is the way you respond to it and the way you react to it. And I can imagine a lot of people just giving up.

You know, sometimes you see like people with scars and they're and they handle it with grace and it makes them an attractive person. Um, even if it's like you know, an a Severe injury or having gone through, you know, survived domestic violence or or anything like that. I, you know, kids in this in the foster system. We fostered kids before. You like you see some really incredible people who haven't quite locked in how to use it all yet, but you can see the potential in them.

Yeah.

That those people have always inspired me the most when I, you know, when somebody has been, you know, survived some sort of ordeal and they talk to to kids about it and stuff like that. And so that that's that's always resonated with me. That and push through, that gets me oof. You know, you telling me a story about you know you everything with your family and all that. Like I love push through. It is so attractive to me in a human being and a friend. I like people that have got grit inside of them. I like people that have got moxie. Uh as I as I you know, as I sort of threw in the start of the book, I like people that that have got something inside them that lets them push when other people would give up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, it can be hard to do sometimes.

Sometimes impossible. You just gotta do it sort of in retrospect, you know? I kind of flub that one, but it won't happen again, I promise.

Yeah, or even, you know, letting yourself maybe not push through for a little while and wallow and then eventually just being like, all right, well, I've had enough. This is it.

In the south, we say waller.

Waller. I lived in Georgia for like 20 years. Oh, yeah.

You know Waller.

I don't say waller. I say waller.

You should try it out. I think I started saying it like, don't shake your head. You just wait. It's gonna sneak in now. I say wallow, and then next thing I know, I I throw one in there for giggles, and then I'm a waller guy.

Nope. I'll pass. I'm not in Georgia anymore.

Note to self, just as in a waller girl.

I'm not a waller girl.

Oh my god.

So you you said that you're a pantser. Mostly. You're you're mostly a panther. But do you do you know how many books roughly you're looking to be in this series?

I know exactly. Um, I you know, it being a book one, I don't expect it to go absolutely nut so yet. Um Daniel Wisnewski, holy crap. I don't know if you listen to he is so good. He's I think this was made for him. I think this story was made for him.

He's in like my top four audiobook narrators.

He is annoyingly affordable too. He's gonna overbook himself, and it's gonna be I need him to up his prices because no, I'm not joking. Daniel started. Charge more. I need you. He's gonna be backed up to who knows.

He's really good.

He is really good, and and again, I feel like the gravitas. When I wrote this character, I I never I mean, we got some really good auditions, but the voice I needed gravitas. I needed somebody that had, you know, Arby's the meat, you know? We got the meat. I needed somebody with that. I could just couldn't picture. There was some really good actors, and then there were people that had the voice. And then I was in the car with uh with Cameron from Shadow Alley Press, and we we had decided on a narrator, and then got a late um audition from Daniel, and we were driving, and we didn't tell them yet because we were still early on. We didn't tell the other person yet. So, you know, I'm a man of my word, and I probably would have rolled with it anyway. But we turned that audition on, didn't say a word, and 10 minutes later, we were like, Well, that's that. What you gonna do?

Yeah, he is he is fantastic.

But I expect if I have to, if if the series doesn't do great, I'm not gonna just put it on hold and see if I get famous later so I can afford to do it later. I will finish the series in a very thick waok three. It will be thick.

Um with like two C's and four K's.

Yeah, there's gonna be some Q's in there. You're gonna be wallering in words. Um you could tell that the pub is me in a lot of ways, I'm sure.

Yes.

Yes, it's very funny and snarky.

Um so, but I I feel like a natural conclusion could happen in five books comfortably. I could do it in four, depending on how I want to flesh out. Really, I want to flesh out the, you know, the the eldritch side of things, the things that were sort of the the thing that was watching him when he was coming through to this new world, the thing that keeps trying to poke in and watch, you know, this thing that's on the outside edges of the the the galaxy waiting for this planet to die, you know? So you know, these are these are all things that if I want to dive into that, you know, I really do need, you know, three, four, and five. And you know, there's some touch points in in two, but the world is still so broken that that I don't want to focus outside, you know, and and unless those things are linked. I won't go into any more because you know, there's there's there's I I want people to watch the story grow in scale and scope. That was my big thing, is like a another cool thing about a desert is I wanted someone to to picture how it might feel to be in something that's seeming is seemingly endless, to be walking and not having a point that you can look at and say, I'm gonna walk to that. It takes a different type of of drive and push-through to be able to keep going when there's nothing on the horizon. But that's what it takes to survive in this kind of world. Um I I will say that Eric and and Oscar were not even close to the first people that were brought here to try to save this world. And that's something that is not in the book, and and and they will not really have access to finding out, but that's something that I think is important. He's not the chosen one, he's in some ways what's left, you know.

That makes me wonder because they talk about in the book that humans are not very common. They're they're pretty rare. So, like when one pops up, they're typically like forced into this kind of enslavement and sold around.

Yeah.

So that makes me wonder if all of the humans that end up in that world are all brought there in an effort to save that world. Or are humans naturally, like, or have they always naturally been on that planet?

There are species that have been born and lost, and there are species that have been there that are human or human equivalent, you know, for the entirety of the world. Having said that, the the way that everyone got there is something that I want to explore a little bit more into book three, so I won't go too much into it. But I will say, yes, there are other humans in the world, and not all of them are brought over. And in fact, that's one reason why he wasn't immediately just grabbed and taken straight over to Graham's collective, was because, you know, especially as merchants, humans just sort of pop in and out. They're, you know, they're they're more common to be clinkers than anything, realistically, actually, because it's just they're sort of outcast, they do need support, they're not, you know, if they don't have access to waste spring water constantly the way that that he does, imagine what happens to the human skin over the course of you know, they they humans don't do super well outside of a community or a collective in that world.

No, no. I mean, well, even even if they had water just being on their own with no one around will eventually drive you crazy.

Yeah.

Being on your own.

And that's why we have pangolins.

They keep us sane. It's so cute. I love Penny. Uh so you you know how many books they're gonna be. And do you have do you have like a set plan for where you want the story to end, or is that one of those things that you're kind of just you have a loose idea, but you're letting it kind of write itself?

I don't want to make any promises that I can't keep. And and I'll be honest with you, I I don't think in a world like this that that everything is going to be perfect, but I think that's kind of the point. Is that you know there's growth in struggle and and I I would love to end this the story on a a bit of a struggling hope instead of uh you know, instead of obliteration or or or Armageddon. I mean, I I think that it would be really cool to be able to tie this up in a way that that above all feels authentic and feels realistic without being too convenient. And I'll be honest with you, I I have no plans to no hard set plans to to cause any readers' heartbreak or anything like that with anything in particular, but I just don't know what feels right until I get there.

Yeah.

Um I I'm writing a scene now at the early part of book three that I I kind of don't want to write. And it's not it's not, you know, again, I'm not gonna I will never kill off a you know one of my main characters to be like, ooh, got you readers. It's nothing like that. But that doesn't mean that that the people that they meet along the way and stuff like that may not, you know, this a hard world. And I don't want this the what I've got planned, you know, for this scene sort of got brought awry because it's like again, you know, it's like in you know, some children's shows, uh they shoot a thousand arrows and uh you know everyone's like, oh, is everybody okay? Like, no, they're they're not, they're just not okay. Like, there's no world where you know a hundred people survive a thousand arrows, it's just it's just not gonna happen.

So unless it's stormtroopers, they're shooting those arrows.

That's true, that's true. But they used it so hard in that that we can't ever do that again.

True.

Like, have you ever read read Snow Crash by Neil Stevenson? His main character's name, Jess, is Hero H-I-R-O protagonist.

Okay. Well, that's so that's not the first time that I've actually heard that. Uh you watch the show Heroes, right?

I've seen the first, at least the first season and a half.

Yeah, one of the main characters in Heroes was named Hero.

So Neil Stevenson, though, wrote that book so well that no one can ever do something that on the nose again. It's just, it was too perfectly done. It was enough so that I probably didn't even catch it the first time his name dropped. I mean, protagonist, yes.

Right.

But just in my mind, the H-I-R-O, okay, Hyro. Anyway, I just read, you know, you and then slowly I was like, no, this name is Hero. Hero protagonist. And that is the finest name for an MC that you can come up with, and Neil Stevenson has stole it. And just like that, the stormtroopers were so bad, they used up all the believability of missing shots that we can no longer do that.

Yeah.

Thanks, George Lucas.

Yeah, yeah, thanks a lot.

Wow.

Shark. Gotta ruin it for everybody else.

So mad.

I don't I think that getting through to the end of your series, I wouldn't feel as done with it if everything did end all like everything's rainbows and sunshine, and everyone's happy, and everyone survived, and no one got hurt. It would be a good thing.

But you know, there's other types of hurt, you know, and and you know, honestly, I think that giving people some of those ups and downs makes a character feel dynamic, and and you know, there needs to be I mean, this is a world of struggle, that's the whole point. And I would be amiss if I didn't allow it to feel when you're reading the story, I don't ever want you to be like, oh, that's convenient. There's a scene in the neutron movie that I I was again, we we sort of talked about it before. I I've heard people that loved it and heard people that didn't like it. I enjoyed it, but then again, I'm a Tron guy, so I'm probably pretty easy to please. But there was a scene where a character landed in like a dumpster full of paper, and I'm like, could you not at least have used water where it wouldn't have been a convenient landing? That's the one time where I'm like, don't and I never want to write that. I never want to write that. If I'm ever if I ever drop something on Royal Road and you're like, that feels convenient, you had better let me know because I never ever ever want to do that.

So that'll be up to everyone else. Everyone else out there, that'll be up to them to let you know because I don't read Royal Road.

I don't blame you. Uh the the story from book one, I actually left the original intro up. So it's funny because what's left on book one on Royal Road is not much that's in the the the book. It's uh it's kind of like it is kind of what happened, it is still what happened, but it's not in the start of the book because it is like 8,000 words of absolute despair. So I do I don't if you're if that's your thing, go to Royal Road and check it out. But uh, you know, if you're if you're a typical lit RBG uh reader, then I feel like I've given you about as much as you can handle, and and I'll see, I'll try to stay on the line if I can.

Well, I mean, real life isn't all rainbows and sunshines all the time, and I don't know.

I thank goodness we'd be lazy.

Or I'm more lazy than I already am. But I've I I do read books as kind of in a form of escapism, or because they're so different and I have such a easy time putting myself in their shoes and like being able to feel what they feel. That I don't I don't think I would want a story that's a hundred percent just happy sunshine rainbows.

It it needs to feel rewarding when you get it, you know, those moments when they're they're uh lucky or blessed, whatever you want to call it enough, to to sit around and laugh and and have fun and pennies, you know, doing penny stuff and and and Oscar's flicking water at Fox or you know, or whatever, like in these moments to be happy enough to have that it needs to feel like that's impactful. Because otherwise those moments don't feel emotional. I want I want I mean there's symbolism in everything that I write. My character is Fox and 2 1. I was with 2 1 Fox in Iraq. So Fox and 2-1, or Foxoon is her name, and 2-1 is not by the way, his name in the book is not 2 1, his it's T-O-U-W-O-N. But you know, there's symbolism in all of that. Um the designation for um for the pub, uh RAT, um, as I explained it when they were created, it was AAAB, and so there were a bunch of these things made millennia ago.

Yeah.

And his the designation for for his is he has an actual matching bracer that goes along with it, is RAT. Well, that's the initials of a friend of mine that passed away in 2013 of cancer. Um, there's a character um near the end of the book um that is based off of one of my Marines I lost in Iraq. Um and as much as I wanted that character to yeah, as much as I wanted that character to be there, I I couldn't. I couldn't, I couldn't do it. It felt wrong, it felt disingenuous. I wanted I wanted there to be glory and and honor and sacrifice. And and these characters mean a lot to me. Uh whenever I hear people talk about their characters and they're just like, oh, they do what I want, I'm like, man, you're missing out. I think there's something there. And don't get me wrong, there are people that can write a story. I'm just not that gifted that I can just write a character without pouring myself into it and making it meaningful. That that character means an awful lot to me. Uh way misrepresented by the length of the time in the book, but I assure you that there is a history and a story behind that that I will um uh I will honor.

Um I mean you could tell when reading about that character that there was more to what had happened.

Yeah.

I mean that it came through.

Good.

It came through exactly that.

There is no better compliment than when somebody like um I was talking with somebody, I I think I my post I put up on LitRPG um this morning talks about that. When when you pour your heart into something, and like I if there's one thing I'm gonna focus on, I want my characters to feel like like dynamic, real people. And you know, you don't say that, you don't preach it in the book that that's what you want, and then somebody jumps on a review and is like, wow, you know, this felt like I knew these people. This felt like I could, you know, join this world and know who these people were, and I could actually trust them. And uh that that is more affirming than I mean, everybody loves a five-star review, but I mean, e even a four-star that had that written in it, that's like the one thing I did enjoy was the and if it happens to be the thing that I really poured myself into, oof, you've made my whole day.

Yeah. No, but I think that pouring yourself into those characters like that uh makes them infinitely better than someone who just writes the characters and it's like, oh, it's just a character I created. They they're just gonna be here for this specific plot point and they're gonna just do whatever I need them to do, and then they're gonna go away. That's not true. Some people are geniuses and can do that.

You know, I don't know. I think you can really tell when someone puts that that real I think I can too, but I I don't want to throw shade because I I know some authors that I throw that I I love their story, but their focus is on the world building and their characters are living in the world. Um you know, for us, the the the world is the characters, and I feel like I could take my characters and put them in on any planet and any world, and they would find a way to either thrive or go out in a blaze of glory. And that's what I wanted. I wanted characters that felt like, you know, some people are warriors. You know, you meet people and and and we live in a civilized world, and and and I'm not saying that the world is perfect, uh, everybody knows it's not. But sometimes you run into someone and you're like, you could put them with a laser on Mars fighting Martians right now, and they would just be like, I need to figure out what happened when I'm done killing all these Martians. Like some people are just made for for that. And we live in a civilized world. And so sometimes these people fall through the cracks. That's why there's so many people that struggle with mental health and that lack of purpose, because some people were born to fight. I knew people that were that were in Iraq that were that were not, they would get in trouble when they were at home. And when you go over there, they're just like exactly who you want to have at your back.

Yeah. And so that's how you kind of wrote Oscar.

Yeah.

Is he needs that purpose and he needs that goal and that like this is what we need to do instead of just aimless.

And he's gonna, you know, and he's a flawed character. Um, you know, he's flawed in that he's overly sacrificial and and it's not it's not bred out of a a desire to like be a a martyr. He's pretty apathetic to his own well-being in a lot of ways. And and and there have been times in my life when the reason that I held on was because of the people who love me and not because of myself. And I don't feel like I've dove as far into depression as so many other people. I've I just know what it felt like when I was peeking into that tunnel. I know what it felt like when when I looked into that tunnel and I expected to see some light at the end of it and there's a brick wall. I know what it feels like to be to wonder if if if there's a reason. What kept me going during all that time was knowing that there are people that rely on me. There are people that for better or for worse look up to me, um, not just because I'm tall, um, but also just because I I've been through something and I've tricked people into believing I handled it with grace when really I just fought and fought and fought, and I finally come to the conclusion that you cannot stop fighting. It doesn't ever go away. Um I'm doing well, I legitimately am. Um I would lie to you if I wasn't, but I I really am if if that doesn't confuse things further, um because I don't want to burden people with my stuff. And that's a that's a that's an idiot's game. I should have people to rely on, and and I'm getting better about that. Um step one of that is when somebody gives you a compliment, I don't want I don't undermine it. I I try to take it sincerely in the way that it's meant. I've stopped the negative self-talk. Oh my God, that's so hard.

That's that is hard.

That's a hard thing to that was the biggest jump in my mental health that I've ever done in my life. When I stopped allowing myself to call myself stupid in my head.

Yeah.

When I stopped saying that was also the time when I finally realized that I had written something that was worth someone reading. And it's weird because if you meet me, I'm not someone who struggles with self-confidence. It's not that I'm not like swimming in it, but I can fake it until I feel it. And and for me, I've struggled a lot with with seeing the worth that I bring to the table as something unique. I've always felt like a stand-in for for something that anybody could do. And I and I've realized that due to the things that I've gone through and especially due to my support system, I have been able to turn into somebody that that I'm proud of. And that's a weird thing to say. It feels wrong to say, but if you can't say that about yourself, then then please at least don't at least don't talk down to yourself. If you're not at a point yet where you can can talk up, please try not to talk down. I was uh I think it was Terry Cruz that said he saw a picture of himself one time and he was really beating himself up, and he he said he saw a nine-year-old picture and he just Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you something right here. Alright. He saw that nine-year-old picture of himself, and he said, Why I would never say the things I say to myself to that nine-year-old kid. When why do I think it's okay to say that now?

Yeah.

So what I want to say is there was a time very recently when I could look back, and that poor kid that went to war, I could relate to him close enough that I still felt like I'm good, like we're pushing through, we can make it work, and I can't do that anymore. I I have grown so far away from in a good way, grown on top of that I can look back and I don't relate to him and I see him for what he really was and he was a kid. He was a kid doing, you know, grown-up stuff and learning how to to become something that he wasn't ready to be. Uh I had a three-month-old daughter when I got hurt, I'd never even met her. Oh my god, when I got hurt, I put my own tourniquet on. Um, you know, these are all things that that if things hadn't have played out the way that it played out, I wouldn't be here today. My nine millimeter was on my hip instead of on my chest where I carried it every time because that morning I chose getting breakfast ready over getting my gear right. Where on the road, I didn't move my gear because you don't mess with your gear on the road. It's just asking for Lady Luck to pee on you. And um, we get there and we didn't have comms with battalion. And so I'm working on the radio. As soon as we get that fixed, our inner squad radio pipes up, and we've got a Marine that's got to go get stitches because he cut the back of his leg open. And so I still have my nine millimeter on my hip. We go pick up and we go to go across this overpass, and the first vehicle gets hit with a roadside bomb. I jump out on an overpass. We couldn't circle the wagons, we were just silhouetted on top of this overpass. I went running up to try to help and got hit. And after I got my tourniquet on, I started looking for my weapon, and whatever busted that weapon into five pieces would have gone through me like a hot knife through butter. And so there's a thousand things and people that came to get me when I got hurt. Yeah. When I put my hand in my pocket, I had this little pin that had my daughter's face on it, and I didn't pull it out and look at it. There wasn't this big like moment or whatever, but just touching it was enough for me to it was like ice water to the face. And I was like, I have people, I have people. And they had called me in KIA Um because I wasn't moving, and that kind of got me going too, because it wasn't because they gave up on me, it wasn't that, it was the fact that that I know what they called that over the radio, and 40 people heard that Doc Worley had been, you know, or or more, because I'm sure it was bounced to battalion.

Right.

But and that was like I can't let them think that that's it. And so that's what got me going. And then the tourniquet and all that was because, you know, when I put my hand in my pocket, I I found that little pin on my daughter, and I'd not met her yet, and I'm like, I gotta go meet my kid. And you know, it was a it was a push-through moment that was built off of a support system that I even then was working towards me. And so I've had to look back now at that kid that went through all that stuff and give him acknowledgement for the push-through that he did because he was scrambling and he was scared and he didn't know what to do. He didn't know how to be a dad, he didn't know what to do after losing his purpose. And so I feel like a lot of that stuff and those hard times I poured into certain aspects of different characters. You know, there's a little bit of me in in in all those characters, but realistically, my support system is where the I feel like the characters really shine. They're they really show up. You know, my my middle daughter for Penny, my oldest daughter is is just like a mirror of her mother in a lot of ways. And so that sort of like stoic, almost harsh honesty that Fox brings to the table is is a bit of that. Um, you know, to one is that introspective side of so many people, and and two one is is autistic. Um I I I don't go into that because it's not, you know, we don't really get to dive into Tuan's head too much.

But it makes a little bit of sense though.

It it does, and and you know, and you'll get to see this, and oh my god, to one's heart. I love his heart. I'm gonna get what is going on with me today?

So it's not just you. It's not just you.

It's his love, his the things that he does. He's one of the he's a quiet servant, and so he doesn't know how to look Fox or Oscar in the face and say, I I love you guys. You guys mean the world to me. So he fixes their things, you know. He helps them walk. He helps them walk. He, you know, he tunes up the prosthetic and he he improves upon it. His mind is always working, and that's a world that he understands. He's always fidgeting with something. Like that's his thing, is like, I can make these people safe. I've just got to create a better weapon, I've got to get the armor um, you know, so that it can handle certain types of attacks. We've got and his love language is in those little acts of of service. And I absolutely point that out in in book two when because it takes a while, and I didn't want to just give it away early, but it takes a little while for some people who are doers like Oscar to say, Well, hold on a second here. Some things run smoothly because of other people, and I haven't acknowledged that yet. I really should give credit to that person and try to find a way to acknowledge that person in their love, in their own love language.

Yeah.

You don't want to just be like, I would like to call Tuan to the front and give him an award for like that's the last thing that Tuan needs, you know?

Yeah.

You know, all these characters are just different aspects of people that I admire. And that single-minded focusedness of of working hard to take care of the people around you and expecting nothing in return makes we don't get I I wanted to share that because I wanted people to stick with Tuan and not think that there's not a lot going on with that character. There's so much. There's so much going on with that character.

Just because he doesn't talk a lot doesn't mean that there's not a lot going on.

He's got A-line? Is it A? He's got A-line, doesn't he?

Well, I mean, he talks to Fox. He talks to Fox.

He talks to Fox sometimes, yeah.

Um, I think he talks to Oscar once or twice uh in very short, like one or two word sentences.

I love the idea of wondering like why doesn't he? He can clearly do it. Why doesn't he ever talk to me like it's not his thing?

Not him.

Not his thing.

And he's okay with that. He doesn't try to force him to.

Yeah, he doesn't try to force it. You know, I I that that's that's a hard thing for somebody like me who, you know, I've always gravitated towards quiet people. I'm sure it's a nightmare for them initially, but I once I learn what you know what they need from me, I love being able to give that. I love people that are a challenge.

I love, you know, I what's funny is despite the fact that I host this podcast, which requires me to talk a lot and be very social, uh, I am not. If you see me at conventions, yeah, uh, I am the person who is kind of sitting at the edges and like not really talking much and just kind of hanging out and being super quiet. That's that's every convention I'm at.

So I I liked you immediately from the first time we met.

And I I'm so sorry.

What they say, like extroverts adopt introverts. So, but but I I do know though that the way to build a friendship with someone like you is to sit near you and just be there. And I and that really, and just you know, hey, do you want something to eat? Boom, that's it. Like, don't even I mean, I I I you meet me and and I I I think Eric um Eric uh D, who who writes the Unintended Cultivator series, he uh he he's like, when I first met you, I thought you were a Chad bro. And he's like, I immediately didn't like you. And I knew I picked up on that because I'm I if I've got a skill that's picking up, he's like, he thinks I'm like a a limping douchebag. Like I I made it a point to to spend time around him. And and my whole thing is if you don't like me, that's fine, but you'll get to know me before you make that decision, at least a little bit, because there, you know, I I I can be a little out there. Um, but you know, my goal is for you to be happy and feel safe around me, not for me to be the center of attention. And so, you know, that that's what my goal is to just to get to know you, and sometimes I push the edges because you know, I gotta find out where they're at.

So yeah. I think that's part of the reason why I my best friend Susan is who I always go to conventions with. And the last couple of years, we haven't spent as much time together at conventions because our reason for going to conventions has kind of deviated from each other a little bit. She's very much like the I want to go, I'm super like she is a fantastic cosplayer. She's amazing. And she goes and she does all these photo shoots and she does all these group activities with other cosplayers, and just is constantly hanging out with a ton of new people and meeting new people and getting out there and talking to people, and I'm just like, I'll go, but I'm just gonna kind of follow you around for a little while, and that'll be it. But the last couple of years, it's I've been going more for the um, I guess the lit RPG crowd, and so she goes out and does her partying thing, and I go sit at the bar quietly and listen to all the authors.

Lit RPG authors are some of the best group of people. If you see people hanging around Chatfield, James Hunter, um, you know, Jez and in the in the Legion crew, um, you can pretty much bet that they're a good, decent group of people. Um you know, Michael Head, people like that, Dakota. Like it's wild to first name bases people that I still look up to. You know, I can't call Brian Norton Mr. Norton. Um, you know, it's that just sounds weird. Yeah, I'm Brian Norton.

Yeah, you if you called if I saw you say Mr. Norton, I'd be like, who would he?

Well he would eat that up. You'd probably eat like, you have to call me that forever now.

That's exactly what he would say. So you can't.

No, so you can't. You can't do it once. He's he's definitely the the he'll he'll always pick the bigger spoon if you're splitting an ice cream.

That just means you have to eat faster.

Yeah, you have to eat faster, that's right. You gotta pace him.

Yeah. That's funny. Yeah, the whole, the whole all the authors and the publishers and even the readers, every like narrators and artists, everyone is just so friendly and welcoming and just genuine. I haven't met a single person yet that I'm like, that person's kind of fake. Or they feel like they're just kind of putting on a front. It's everyone's been fantastic.

You know, and and and also um there is a very healthy level of competition. They're like Jim Bros. I don't know, you know, if you know what I mean by that. Like, I think there's a culture and that that is within lit RPG authors that are like, what are you struggling with? You know, a person that is literally my direct competitor. You know, what is it, what can I do to help you? Um uh it's it's like uh Daniel Day Lewis and and what's the the guy who did um There Will Be Blood, John Thomas Anderson, something like that. Anyway, so Quentin Tarantino and him have always, you know, he's like, if it wasn't for There Will Be Blood, he's like, you never would have gotten Inglorious Bastards. He's like, it pushed me to up the level of what I was capable of doing. And that's what it's like between people like James Hunter and Dakota Crow. That's what it's like between um, you know, these these authors, they're very, very encouraging. They want to beat you at your best, if that makes sense. And they will help you get there.

It does. It's the same, that is the exact same kind of feel as it is with our very small group of lit RPG podcasters. Oh, yeah. Like, I wouldn't be doing this if it weren't for Richie and Joel of Chat and Stats.

I love those guys.

I wouldn't, I wouldn't be doing this if it weren't for them. Yeah. They invited me to come on and co-host a few episodes, and I was like, oh, I can totally do this. I want to do this.

And then um, you know, pop pop started doing I'm still waiting on him to uh to review my book.

Pop pop, you better get on it.

Yeah, get on it. Unless it's bad.

And then you know, and he started and he asked for some feedback, and I was like, listen, like you're doing really good, but I think just tweak this just a little bit, and just tweak that just a little bit, and like it'll be even better. And and so that's exactly how we are too with each other.

That's great, and I'll say this about you. Um, it flows very well, it feels super natural. Uh, I don't feel like you're it may not feel that way, but it does seem that way to me. And so, you know, I think you're doing a fantastic job. I have done bad interviews before, trust me. I think we've all done those where you're like, are have they been talking for 12 minutes?

Yeah.

Like, how am I even gonna edit this?

My our my episodes are minimally edited, luckily. Yeah, um minimally edited.

I don't think we've flubbed anything up too much unless you're trying to get Waller Girl out of there.

We'll be the third one. Okay, you know, we'll we'll keep that in. Um, but I typically have like a million different questions planned out, and I have the pay I have have each question written out on a post-it note, and I have them all over like my laptop and my stadium, and they're everywhere. And I will refer to questions and I have them in in a way where they kind of flow, but I also will skip questions or dive deeper into something just as it like I like to also let it just kind of naturally flow and progress.

Yeah, yeah. Like the flag on the moon. I just want to see how many conspiracy theorists jump in at that point.

The waves there's no wind on the moon.

Jet fuel doesn't melt, still beams. Let's get them riled up.

Let's see what happens. The earth is flat, it's a concave and convex.

Oh man. Chemtrails. Chemtrails, yeah.

I I will say that you should always read conspiracy theories to see how susceptible you are. I I don't care who you are, there are some really smart people that I think are trolling. I don't know, because if you haven't read at least one conspiracy theory, that you're like, actually, um, the biggest conspiracy theory is uh that I know of that I that I'd love people to do research on is uh that Willy Wonka and Snowpiercer uh are sequels.

I don't think I watched Snowpiercer.

You you should watch the trailer for it. It's got Chris Evans in it. So if nothing else, there's a reason to watch it right there.

If nothing else, I guess. If nothing else.

But there's like a 14 minute, so you watch them, and even knowing, like, okay, that's right there, there's like a 14 minute Video and you're like, this is ridiculous. You do you have to do that by the way? This is ridiculous.

This is ridiculous.

You nailed it perfect. And then you watch it, and then your head just slowly tilts more and more. And then by the end of it, you're like, there's no way that this isn't on purpose. And then all of a sudden you've got your tinfoil hat on. You're on a podcast years later telling somebody about it.

Maybe that'll be the next. Maybe I'll start a second podcast and it'll be nothing but conspiracy theories.

Yeah, you let me know. I'll jump on. I'll pretend like I believe anything for fun.

Yeah, that'll be the one that really takes off.

Yeah, you'd be like, this is I'm so bitter about this. Why am I famous for being the conspiracy theory girl? I would rather have been Waller girl.

Maybe I need to start saying Waller Girl.

I'm done with the throwback on that. I'm done with the throwback. I won't, I won't, I won't bring that one back up. That was my last one. It was just too good. You know, you alley ooped me.

It was good. It's funny. So what's uh so man, all right. So we got way off track here.

Oh yeah. I blame you.

Uh it is my fault. I let it happen.

Oh, it's totally me.

You did it, but I let it happen. It's my job to keep it on track.

I think we it was all the way back at Terry Cruz. So if you just want to cut all the way back to Terry Cruz, I think I think we were still kind of on track there.

Yeah, yeah. I will say though, Terry Cruz is a phenomenal human being.

Yeah.

You want to talk about self-correction.

I've done some reading on his past and like his struggles, and he is ooh, man, he is inspirational.

What a guy. I mean, had some struggles in his life that were affecting his marriage and stuff like that. I won't go into it because I want you to hear it in his words. His growth is so beautiful.

Yeah, my um my partner has uh oh well, I don't know if he still does. He probably still has it somewhere, but at one point he had a a quote, like a big quote from Terry Cruz um printed out with a picture of Terry Cruz underneath it and hang it on as well.

Because he's just with his shirt on or off, because that matters.

I'm pretty sure the shirt was on. I'm pretty sure we can fix that.

I guess we can fix that.

I'm sure there's a photoshoppable like way, I'm sure there's a pose where he's doing the exact same thing just with less clothes on.

Yeah, I'm sure I could find one. I'll I'll fix it.

Like I'm a straight guy, but I do want to touch his abs.

Who doesn't?

I mean, I feel like that's straight, right?

Just research, just appreciation.

Yeah. I want to admire him with touch.

So cats.

All right, cats. Let's do this. This is actually this is a big thing. Um, I made a mistake with with the cat in that I know it's odd, I know it's odd, but there was more lead up in the original opening, number one, and number two, I never stated, I just assumed that everyone knew the Bastette was the goddess of cats. So it didn't occur to me to say it straight out, and now it's an audiobook. So I I could technically go back and and clarify a little bit, but realistically, what happens at the at the scene that I know that is in your mind right now is it really so many it is there really is a a representation of power that's there. You know, for for Oscar, it or for um Gandalf, it could have been a big gout of flame. For you know, Cora the airbender, it might have been water. And for Bastet, her representation of power is in a spiritual representation of of something that already exists. Um, many of those cats are actually named by readers and people that I know. Um, the the opaqueness or tangibility of the cats is based off of whether or not they are living or dead. And I want to tell you something that you you probably won't hear anywhere else. Um when whenever you see a cat fighting a hair bow or something like that, that may just be where they are physically, spiritually. They could be fighting somewhere else. So there you go.

Like real cats, like cats you have around your house?

So with the cats, the the tangibility of the cats uh are based off of whether or not they, you know, at the time of riding were living or dead. And the you know, the I the the playful fighting or whatever that that you might see with cats and things like that are um could be training for something. You never know. You know, they may not that cat if if there's an animal that exists on more than one plane, it's cats, probably.

Yes, you know 100%. So they can see things that we can't, I'm convinced.

I I agree a hundred percent. And that's kind of where that side of things stemmed from. So originally there was just gonna be a great wash of power. There was gonna be, you know, or whatever in in that particular scene. But I was I in my mind, I I I did something odd, and I know it's odd. Um, but realistically, it there it wasn't one of those moments where it wasn't one of those moments where, you know, it wasn't the big bad that that we're dealing with. It was just a pro it was a a a problem in scale. And I think it's clear that there were no elements of what was available to our our collective, uh, you know, that could have handled something on that scale. And so they ran to something that maybe could that had called them and basically said, you will be safe here if you come here. So it might feel a little um odd, but it is fun, and I feel like it's true to what I have built Bastet up to be.

So I mean it was a really cool scene.

And by the way, bro, the start of book two is gonna give you a backstory on on that that I cannot wait. I did something crazy there too. I go into I go into a first person shift for a scene that I think I'll shut up. It's gonna be it's gonna be wild.

I can't wait to read it. So I guess one one last question before I let you go, because I've had you for uh a while now.

Um but it's been great.

It's been fun. Uh so Vala.

You wait, I I just want to stop. You went to your falsetto there, and I'm concerned that it hasn't been fun. I've just been the worst.

No, it's been good. It's been real good. It's been the worst. I want to wrap it up so I don't have to do this anymore.

Oh my god. Oh, that that was uh that one fell. Oof.

No.

I know where my heart's at now.

All right. I'm so sorry.

So Vala, in in one of those fights near the end, yeah, these kind of shadow monsters show up.

Yeah.

And it talks about how when they scream, it sounds like two voices. So is that scream, is that their scream, but also Vala's scream because she is somehow connected to these, or are these actual organic creatures? I feel like they were something that she conjured up to fight.

And so in a sense, absolutely, that's what's happening. Um, I go into exactly what that is, but uh but realistically, the Oh, you're gonna love the end of book two. But realistically, what they represent the the the sickness of the world. They represent exactly what's killing it. That draw of power comes from something or some somewhere or someone that that Vala is addicted to. That drug of power that she's yeah, you know, that she just willingly gives into. Um I will say that the Griffiths vulture was unwilling, and that's why it represented itself differently.

Yeah.

You see something different with the Griffiths vulture and and the decay that it was fighting. That's what looks like when something is inherently not evil and fights it as hard as it can for as long as it can.

Yeah. And that makes actually perfect sense.

And and Vala is what happens when you give in. And then anyone weaker than you is mindless at that point. You know, she does control because of her power. Um, you know, it's it's I go into that and I can't wait to share. I cannot wait to share.

I can't wait to read it.

You could probably get a general idea of what I I call it by reading the summary of book two, but um, you know, we'll see. We'll see.

Okay. Okay. Where can people find you online?

So you I you I have a website called Yarn Grunts, Y-A-R-N-G-R-U-N-T-S.com. Um, it's not super fleshed out now, it just has book one, but you can also find Wayspring Wanderer uh on Audible, and it's available on Amazon and KU as well, Kindle Unlimited, for my my homies like me that like to burn through as many books as we can throughout the week for the low, low price of probably going up. And um and uh Wayspring Warden, book two, is with the editors right now. Uh I am pouring myself into book three, um going back and forth, writing uh and and sort of sharing ideas with some of the people at Shadow Alley Press. And uh I've got some some people in my corner that are thoroughly enjoying um the direction that I'm going with it. And so I am excited. I will say that the stakes are growing, and I can't wait for you guys to see what I got planned because it's getting it's fun for me, so I know it's gonna be fun for somebody else.

Yes. Uh, do we have a release date for book two?

It is in January. It will probably be ready before. Um, in fact, give me just a second and I'll look it up because it's it's on there, but it's it's sort of a loose. Um, let's see here. So book two is expected to come out January 13th.

Okay, perfect.

So it you know, it'll be sometime right after the start of the year, no matter what.

Okay. Not soon enough, but I'll accept that.

I agree. I thought it was gonna be too long and then like work and life, and I'm like, I'm actually almost glad that uh you know that it's that far because I I I don't want the gap between book two and book three to be super long because book two ends and you're gonna want to read book three immediately. I wanted to write book three immediately. In fact, I wrote, I pretty much wrote right into the next book before I started editing uh book two because I I had to just get that down while it was fresh in my head. So nice.

Well, I will be sure to link to your website and your Amazon page in the description of the YouTube video. And that's all I have. Uh thank you, Jodan, for coming on. It was an absolute pleasure. Uh, thank you, everyone, for sticking around and hanging out with us. Thank you, Angel, for editing my podcast. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and share, and keep on leveling up.